Management interview with Allan Leighton, top UK business leader
By
Allan Leighton
I recently completed a number of interviews I did with select successful individuals, of which Allan Leighton was one.
So who is Allan Leighton?
Allan Leighton is a highly successful entrepreneurial businessman, widely regarded as one of the UK’s top business leaders.
In 2001 Allan Leighton joined the Royal Mail Group as a Non-executive Director. He became Chairman of the group in 2002.
As well as Chairman of the Royal Mail group, Allan is Chairman of Race for Opportunity, a national network of over 10 private and public organisations across the UK working together on race and diversity. He is also Chairman of Bhs Ltd, Non-executive Chairman of Cannons Group Ltd and lastminute.com, a Non-executive Director of Dyson Appliances Ltd, BskyB and George Weston Ltd, and Deputy Chairman of Selfridges and Co.
I truly believe that if you want to be successful the quickest, easiest and simplest way is to learn from someone who already is successful. I chose this interview to compliment the First-Class Manager program, as Allan is a First-Class Manager.
Allan is having a fantastic career and is a true achiever. He knows where he is going in his life. He knows where he is taking his businesses.
In this extract of the interview, you’ll see he is always discovering and learning, has a positive attitude and changes his approach when required. He takes action to achieve his goals.
So as you read, you will discover some great insights as to how Allan has become so successful in his own right.
Please note this is a transcript of a live speaking recording. They were not originally completed in a written format. So they may sound like speaking rather than writing.
Allan: Hi, Andrew.
Andrew: Hi, Allan. How are you?
Allan: Good, actually. How are you?
Andrew: I’m excellent. I’m excellent. Allan, your career includes times at Mars, Asda and BSkyB. You are now chairman of the Royal Mail, as well as others. You’ve got your website, www.going-plural.com, helping entrepreneurs. You have written a book. How do you find the time?
Allan: Very simply, actually. I just A) work quite hard and B) focus on the things that are important. I try and make sure that I deal in stuff that’s important, and don’t deal in trivia, and refuse to be drawn into all the treacle, which can consume a lot of your time.
Andrew: So treacle, and trivia. Do you just say “no,” and offload it to others?
Allan: No, I just don’t do it.
Andrew: [laughs]
Allan: It’s much easier that way. I try not to offload it, but over time, people just get used to the fact that you don’t deal in it, so they don’t bring it here.
Andrew: And that’s how you work?
Allan: Yeah, absolutely.
Andrew: And they remember that, and don’t mess you about.
Allan: Absolutely.
Andrew: So can I go back to your schooling, and your career? What did you do at school? How did you do at school?
Allan: Average; didn’t know what to do. I went to work for a bank; didn’t really like it. I needed a car, so I thought I’d get a job where you got a car. I applied for a job at Mars, on the grounds that I thought I could sell Mars Bars. That’s how I went in. I just was incredibly lucky to pick a company, but, more importantly, they picked me. I spent 18 years, and they taught me how to do everything.
Andrew: Did they have some sort of fast-track scheme?
Allan: No, no. I mean, yeah, they have got different schemes, but the most important thing is they taught you how to manage people. They taught you the basics. They taught you that, in businesses, a couple of things are important. One is the people you work with, and the second thing is your customers. They taught you how to interact with customers, and how to market products. They taught me how to interact with people. Basic stuff like how to run meetings, how to do appraisals, how to sit down and have conversations with people; the basics that people require, for them to do management well. Which unfortunately are not the basics that get trained necessarily today. People are more interested in sending you up the hill to see if you can climb Everest with one hand tied behind your back, rather than, can you run a meeting.
Andrew: Not many companies do that, even today. You’re talking about…
Allan: 25 years ago. In my view, the good managers I know, they just know how to do the basics. They have always been taught they can do the basics of the job well, communicate with people, run meetings, do appraisals, sit down and talk to people individually about giving them direction. They can get up and talk in front of a group of people in a very relaxed way; don’t need huge PowerPoints to enable them to get their message across. For me, those are the basics you need to do this job.
Andrew: Totally. Great. So why don’t companies do that, then?
Allan: I don’t know. My whole thing is that the whole management development thing, we used to have one person who did it. Now, there are divisions in companies that do it. I keep going round to people saying “teach people to do the basics”. When people do the basics well, then you can add some stuff on top of it, but there is no point of adding more added stuff on top of… You know, when people just can’t, you still have to do the basics.
Andrew: Have you now injected those learning’s into the companies you are the chairman of?
Allan: Absolutely.
Andrew: How easy has that been?
Allan: It’s not easy at all, because everybody wants to go do the next sexy thing, and you just have to keep on at it. When you see people who can do it, and can do it well, that’s the test. The test of training isn’t, “Did the training take place?” The test of training is, did it make the individual better, did the results get better.
Andrew: And learning it all, and putting into practice what you learn.
Allan: Yeah, and doing it well. It’s not: “I’ll teach you how to do this. Go and do it, and fail.” It’s: “I’ll teach you how to do this. Go and do it, and win. And, by the way, the business is better, and you are better, and off we go.” Because that is what it is all about.
Andrew: A lot of people, in my experience, read self-help books, go to seminars. They are seminar junkies. And never do anything with the information they have picked up?
Allan: Absolutely. It’s a waste of time.
Andrew: So they have got to actually put in place what they have learned.
Allan: Yeah. One of the rules we have is: you go to a seminar, you have to come back with one idea that you are going to put into business in the next four weeks.
Andrew: Do they have to sell that to their managers, and the rest of the staff?
Allan: If they need to, but the most important thing, they had better put it in.
Andrew: Otherwise…?
Allan: Otherwise, they don’t go to another seminar.
Andrew: [laughs]
Andrew: OK. I’m a new manager, and I’ve just joined your company. What am I going to get?
Allan: Hopefully, some good inductions, and very simple training, some basic training on how to do the job well. Then you are going to get a line manager who is going to work with you for the next two years, to make you better.
Andrew: What do you want to see me doing, other than these basics?
Allan: That’s it. Just do the basics.
Andrew: Just do the basics. Communicate, talk to the staff…
Allan: Talk with them, not at them. Do the basics, and learn how to be good.
Andrew: What about: I’m 40 years of age. I’ve done management for the last 10 years. I’m stuck in a rut. Don’t know what to do. Where do I go? How do I get help?
Allan: Go to a company that will teach you how to do it well, but most importantly, start from the position that you may be 40 — I know people who are 60, and have got no experience at all. I know people who are 22, who have got huge experience. Experience is not something that goes with age. Experience is something that goes with experiences. It’s true. It happens every day. Every day, I learn something different. The day I don’t, is the day I stagnate. I learn stuff from people half my age, twice my age, it’s really doesn’t matter. The most important thing is to pick stuff up. Learn some stuff. See what people do. Copy it.
Andrew: And get on with it.
Allan: And get on with it. Like I say, you don’t learn the business without doing things.
Andrew: Do you think a key strength of a leader, of a manager is getting things done?
Allan: That’s the only anything. That’s the whole idea. I was told years ago, that the definition of management is “getting things done through other people, willingly and well.” I can remember it. I was told that 30 years ago. Getting things done because that is what it’s all about. I.e. getting things done is about doing stuff. Through other people, because largely you can’t do it yourself. Willingly, i.e. they actually want to do it because they’re motivated to do it. And well, because you’ve trained them to do it well. And 30 years on it still stands, getting things done through other people, willingly and well.
Andrew: So how do I motivate the staff to get them on my side?
Allan: Talk to them. Have a conversation; have a chat.
Andrew: About football? [laughs]
Allan: Do whatever. It doesn’t really make any difference. I say to everybody, “Talk to people the same way you talk to people at home, your mates at the pub.” It’s a conversation. Most things are conversations, they’re not presentations. And you have to get to know people. You have to know what they like, what they don’t like. You have to create the context for them to do their job. You have to create the conditions for them to do their job well, because actually that’s what they want to do. I genuinely believe there isn’t anybody here — well, there are — but there are very few people who get up every morning and decide they want to do a bad job. Basically everybody wants to do a good job and go home feeling that they’ve done a good job. So everything plays to that piece of motivation. And the role of managers and leaders is to create a context and give people the tools for them to do a good job.
Andrew: And build that rapport up?
Allan: Absolutely. And that’s important too. You don’t have to agree with everybody all the time, but it does mean that people have got to feel that if they’ve got a few, they can express it.
Andrew: So many managers in today’s world, they just sit in their offices, behind their glass offices, and never walk out and talk to anyone.
Allan: Yeah, that’s still the case. I think it’s less so than it used to be, because the thing about work is, it used to be somewhere you went and now it’s something that you do. I think that’s changed quite a lot. I think that more people are more in touch, but there’s degrees of it. And I say to everybody, most execution in a company is done by people in the front line, and if you’re not close to people in the front line, then you don’t know what’s going on. And if you don’t know what’s going on, you can’t run stuff very well.
Andrew: So, go back to the floor, go and do their job for the day?
Allan: The most important thing is, understand what it is that makes their job easier. The whole thing is, if you make life easy for customers and you make life easy for people who you work with, i.e. easy for people to do the work, then that’s your job. Your job is not Chief Executive Officer, it’s Chief Easy Officer. And if you think of it as “easy” as opposed to “executive,” then you stand a bit more of a chance of making things happen.
Andrew: I once worked for a new chief executive that came in, and the first thing that he did was remove any offices.
Allan: Yeah, I see. I worked with that; I like working in plain offices. But you can remove all the offices, all that doesn’t take the physical part out, it makes a point. But if you pull all the offices down and you act the same way, nothing changes.
Andrew: Yeah. And this guy sat with us.
Allan: Absolutely. Sat in the middle with you.
Andrew: That’s what he did. And that was — I’m going back 20 years – but that was completely different to what we were used to.
Allan: I was brought up with that environment, 25-30 years ago.
Andrew: Wow, wow. So what do you see of other managers making mistakes, the opposite to what you’re saying?
Allan: Oh, everybody makes mistakes. I say it, and I always get in trouble for saying it, is: “If you’re right two-thirds of the time, that’s pretty good.” And the most important thing is to realize that actually a third of the time, you are wrong. And that is the most important thing, to acknowledge very quickly when you are wrong and change tack. Changing tack is as important a management skill as not changing tack. This whole idea that you know everything isn’t true. So it’s very important to know when you’re wrong and change quickly.
Andrew: And admitting that you are wrong and not being fearful of that.
Allan: Absolutely. And don’t worry about being wrong.
Andrew: But that’s quite difficult, isn’t it?
Allan: No.
[laughter]
Allan: Not if you’re wrong as much as I am.
Andrew: [laughs] What I mean is, a lot of work environment cultures…
Allan: No, I mean that’s the thing, is that difficult for people to Swallow, yes it is But it isn’t difficult to do, no it’s not. That’s the difference.
Andrew: Yeah, I know what you mean. I know what you mean. I’ve read hundreds of leadership books, and they are often all the same. I came across yours, and it’s so easy to read, very much like this interview really. Right to the point, very quick, very succinct. “On leadership, practical wisdom from people who know”. Why did you write it?
Allan: Well, largely because like you, I read lots of books on leadership and management that made it sound the most complicated thing in the world. And actually it’s not. It’s hard, but the principles of it are not hard. And the whole idea is to take it away from being a pseudo-science for people. I know a lot of good people. I’ve been very fortunate in that I’ve worked with lots of people who people admire, and I admire actually. And so I thought it would be quite an interesting way of — one, it’s a positive book on leadership, not a negative book on leadership. And secondly, if would be good, if Rupert Murdoch said something, or Terry Lehy said something, or Fred Smith said something, James Dyson. People know that they’ve been successful and therefore they’ll listen to their experiences.
And so I tried to combine two things: my own practical way of doing things and using people that I know people admire and that I admire, who I know do things similar. And they’re not all… Everybody does the same thing, they just all do it in different ways.
And this is the whole thing when people say, “Find someone that you admire and copy them.” Well, don’t. Find lots of people who do lots of things that you admire and that can fit with your way of doing things, your own personality, and copy those. And the whole thing about the book is, it’s very pragmatic. You read this and you either get it or you don’t get it.
Andrew: So, did you learn something from everyone who was in the book?
Allan: Absolutely. And I do all the time. I talk them. I was taught a long time ago to copy shamelessly and not worry about it. I don’t mind where a very good idea comes from, whereabouts in the organization, senior, junior, it doesn’t make any difference to me. I’m a great people watcher and I actually like people. All the time I just pick stuff up and think, well, that’s quite interesting, I might try that.
Andrew: Can you share one or two things you’ve picked up from the people who have contributed to your book?
Hi, Andrew Rondeau here. I have over 25 years of hands-on management experience within a diverse range of different industries including retail, manufacturing, finance and IT. I’ve managed teams of up to 1000 individuals, managing numerous $multi-million projects, mergers, acquisitions and company sales.
